[Weedy]: in some cases your right.... but a thing like history isent relative....

[Lordterrex]: the use of nuclear bombs, i understand if we used them it would kill every form of life.. exept roaches, and it would ruin crops and all... but shit, what the fuck does iraq grow any way. i understand that this makes me sound cruel, and shit, it also makes me sound stupid, but dont assume that i dont no alll the playign fields, and all the different lil arguments

[Woah!-man]: iraq... well, maybe ify ou looked into it, the oil fields which supply our entire economy lordterrex... and with out that, if we blew up the oil fields, the U.S. would be in a state of chaos.

[Weedy]: i dont see where you want to go with that comment lordterrex..... all you succeded in was sounding like you dont know what the hell your are talking about

[Lordterrex]: yea,i figured u would assume that weedy, but, im used to it, yes i do relize this oryx, of course u also relize thats one of the only reasons were over there right?... if a world leader who dosent liek tradign with us, have a lot of stuff we need, well, i say take them out

[azure_skye]: i know this is old..but...BUCK FUSH!!! MWA HAHAHAHAHA *lets her inner eight year old thrive*

[Woah!-man]: lol. fuck bush. hes just an old ass... who supports nazis... you know its true r.r

[Pale-Suzie]: wow, i don't think i've ever heard anybody sound as stupid as LordTerrex did just then. What are you thinking? If a country has something we need, we jsut go and kill them? WHAT!? Would you jsut piss on any country to get what you want!? do you attack an 8 year old or an old woman or a cripeld if they have something you need!? no i didn't think so! if all americans are as, i'm sorry to say this, STUPID as you, it's no fucking wonder the rest of the world hates USA! and btw. that was wrong, we don't hate USA, we hate bush. And perhaps we hate the stupid americans to, but i think we have pretty good reason to!

[Woah!-man]: hey now, im american lol. i only hate bush, there are SOME good things the u.s. does, just not very often. i think with the right leadership, over the world, everything will.. improve.... (oh god i sound so optimistic T.T)

[Pale-Suzie]: hehe, nothing wrong in sounding like that.... ^_^ and i know there's some good americans, i've met a lot of them on here, but sometimes some americans just sound plain stupid...

[Weedy]: ofcourse there are good americans.... even some intellegent and openminded ones..... sadly its a minority....

[Lordterrex]: yes, i never said i wasnt open minded, just violent, no not all americans think that way, infact very few of them do, just me. infact to be honest, im the only american who thinks that way, i think the world would be pretty bad if there were alot of mes

[Weedy]: lol no you dident say that you wasent open minded.... but i cirtanly thought that you were narrowminded more than once

[Pale-Suzie]: yeah it prolly would... sorry i just can't accept that ppl can say stuff like that but it's your opinion. but you are not the only one, i've met plnety more americans who's said stuff like that...

[Pooop]: Rock against bush volume 1 and 2!

[Woah!-man]: oh wow, you speak a lot of yourself lord terrex. all of us are violant, and if you dont realize that... shame on you. just, we want to see a better world.

[Absinth Minded]: And a better president!

[Kelyndal]: I'm not trying to be hostile here...but this wiki seems to be more about hating America than hating Bush. Not for everyone, but the most prevalent conversations here (Besides the ones that simply state "fuck Bush"or the like) seem to entail insulting America and its inhabitants. Is it jsut my perception, or...?

[Woah!-man]: lol... well, bush represents america T.T

[Kelyndal]: And stigmatizing all Americans because of THAT intolerable man is almost as bad as what he is doing...

[Lordterrex]: ooo.. burn.. hehehehe......

[Pale-Suzie]: hm, maybe it does seem like that but it's not true. it's not americas fault, and not all americans are bad, most aren't really. BUT, bush DOES represent america. and it was the americans who have bush the power he has today... that doesn't justify other countries saying bad stuff about america, but it does to some degree explain it.

[Weedy]: Kelyndal<<< im properly one of the people your talking about..... and your right i often insult americans by calling them stupid ignorant etc..... i do this because allmost all americans i have met seemed like that...... i have travled the us for over two months and sadly most of my prejudices wasent only confirmed but actually some of the things i saw was even worst than i had belived them to be..... i know that not all americans are ignorant of the world and that many of you arent stupid either but sadly it really seems to be a minority.....

[Goldice]: wow ok cool it u lot.i dont want any unkindness in here cos its not the way we behave.we are civilised people and therefore will behave in a civilised manor.ok so u may not agree with something some one ses but try puttin it in a way that wont offend people.yes i no this is a forum for arguin but thers a difference between arguin and insulting.im not goin to name anyone specific but can u please all take all of this on board and consider what your sayin and think how it may offend innocent people.thankyou

[Goldice]: i would like to put something forward and that is that if anyone finds someone in this wiki is being down right bloody ignorant and u think they need a warning or a talkin 2 or wateva then please tell me cos ive had some requests for me to take people off the members list because they have been too insulted 2 stay.

[Sagacious Turkey]: watever did bush do?

[Kelyndal]: First of all, I actually didn't mean to be offensive by bringing to light the bashing of Americans. However, I see no reason to blatantly label us ignorant because of where we live. I was born in America, not given a choice. And yes, historically, this country has made a lot of mistakes. and YES, currently, Bush is running this country into the ground. That being said, I had no part in putting him into power. I wasn't old enough to vote. And the Americans in this wiki CLEARLY see the error of Mr. Bush's ways. And traveling the country could hardly allow you to meet even half of the American public. Still, I DO understand the misgivings so many have about my country. I jsut don't think any

[Kelyndal]: of you are qualifed to stick a label to one of us because of your own prejudiced viewpoint. After all, Bush plays on his prejudices, too. Does ANYONE here want to have that in common with him?

[Orey]: The sad thing is we all have it nno matter what. It's human nature.

[Absinth Minded]: I do not hate America... I just hate its government.

[Erykun]: i just hate bush i hope he doesnt get realected

[Kelaria]: I agree [Absinth Minded] and [Erykun]!! I like what this country originally stood for, but the government has changed that. And I hate what the country has become (mostly I hate the government)

[Erykun]: me to T.T i miss 1999

[Kelaria]: I cant even remember 1999 *cries*

[Kelaria]: grrrr... *shakes fist* stupid bad memory!

[Sagacious Turkey]: vote the american meadow party! opus and bill! two for america!

[Absinth Minded]: I hate Bush too... and I hope.. well, it would take an awefully long time if I told you what I hoped would happen to Bush. Plus, you prolly would not want to hear that.

[Kelaria]: *raises hand* I would *grins*

[Erykun]: heheheh not really

[Orey]: If I could do something about that man I would. And it's the sad thing that he wouldn't be prseident if the'men' who wrote our constatution thought that we weren't smart enought to elect the man/women we wanted to run our country we wouldn't be in this damn trouble in the first place! Damn electoral college!!!

[Erykun]: um

[Goldice]: now thats better.see it aint that hard to b calm bout it is it?

[Rondel]: Just popping by for the first time in ages, but y'all have sparked a thought, which I think you might enjoy kicking around a bit: isn't a lot of the problem with Bush's current foreign policy the fact that he believes that knowledge of a person's citizenship (or birthplace, or ethnic heritage) is enough to allow him to make value judgements about that person? Now, as an American by birth who does NOT like to be taken for such, while living overseas (because the impression of Americans described here is pretty universal, in my experience), I have to point out that there is a difference between stupidity (which is an individual trait), and ignorance

[Rondel]: (which can be the result of cultural censorship). America's school system and media coverage are such as to create a misimpression of the country's past and present misdeeds in the mind of a person with no other source of contradicting information, which is why travel outside of the country is such an eye-opener for many -- and as such, I *would* have to concede that there is a cultural ignorance being deliberately cultivated in America's citizens, by the people with the power to do so (from school boards selecting textbooks to purchase, to media moguls controlling the news). But I don't fault individual Americans for that, though I do try to correct it when I can provide verifiable facts.

[Rondel]: Personally I think it's pretty impressive when a person catches on to a censored truth, and I applaud those people who have managed to do so, *regardless* of where they live, or what that truth is. Right now, there's a *LOT* of U.S. propaganda, and outside of the U.S., we don't see most of it; seeing through those red, white, and blue blinders, when it's YOUR country that's being betrayed, and it's you who's being hurt by the fact you're having to face up to (and could so easily just deny, and drop right back into step with what you're being told to do and say and think), is something that is both painful, and worthy of respect, IMHO. The government isn't the country, or its misled people.

[Rondel]: If you look back at Germany under the Nazis, there's a lot of horror that people *could* have recognized, & had evidence was going on -- but there were also official explanations offered to them, which were more comfortable for the people to accept, so many people chose to believe what the government told them, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because it was less overwhelmingly horrific than facing up to the reality. On a smaller scale, my inlaws did the same thing every time they visited our home, and found ways "not to see" anything that they didn't want to believe about their son's home (including the lack of a 2nd bedroom when we were living together before marriage).

[Rondel]: It hurts less to grieve someone who died fighting a war you believe is right, than one you believe is wrong. The more people have to lose (and Americans have the most to lose), the harder it is to believe in the atrocities, and the easier it is to accept *any* alternative explanation that one is handed. So, yeah, I have a lot of admiration for those Americans who are facing the truth and working to counter it. I know it was different for me, leaving (for other reasons) a place I could no longer believe in, not staying and trying to fix it, but then, most of today's Jews have ancestors who could say the same thing. But I still love the country, as much as I hate what is done in its name.

[Weedy]: rondel<<< its true that stupidity is an individual trait but in my mind a person who wont accept that he/she is ignorant towards some things, or a person who is afraid to admit that he/she is wrong is at least a little stupid...

[Rondel]: Or scared... ...or stubborn... ...I guess my point is that for some people, there's a whole personal world which might come crashing down if they admit that a key "cornerstone" is wrong, and that can be hard to face -- all the harder, in fact, if you're bright enough to see the implications of that key "fact" being wrong. I don't agree with fighting not to admit the truth, but I can definitely understand why people might do it, and why it might be so hard and/or painful for them not to (fight against admitting a truth which runs counter to the fundamental paradigms around which their world is built). Smart people can do really dumb things, sometimes, for reasons other than stupidity.

[Rondel]: It took me a long time to see why different friends, whom I knew to be *very* bright, could hold such different opinions, including on issues which seemed real "no-brainers". Then, over time, I learned to look at what each individual had invested in the belief, what it would do to their world if they had to face the possibility that the belief in question was wrong. The result is that smart people can be even more polarized over an issue, and just as wrong, because they have more insight into what's riding on a given idea passing or failing the test of truth. Still seems weird, but at least I understand it now.

[Pale-Suzie]: wow, it was a bit tough to read all that rondel but i see what you mean. i can't really agrue with it anyway. ^_^

[xOx Katherine xOx]: CAN I JOIN??? PLEASE???? PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE???

[Citrine]: take breaths now, elf

[Orey]: I don't think any free minded person could argue with that statment! [Rondel]

[Goldice]: [xOx Katherine xOx] as u asked so nicely

[Rondel]: Sorry if that was tough to read -- I guess I really should write these essays up in a format/setting more suiited to them. Have y'all ever thought of creating a companion forum for this wiki, where people who want to focus on more intense discussion (and/or debate) can do so, without having to take half-a-dozen comments to express an idea? It's just been occurring to me that it might be easier on everyone if the wiki were kept for shorter comments and requests to join, and longer ideas expressed in another format. The dedicated companion pages are a great start, but even there there is a space limit, and it's not as easy to handle an ongoing conversation - & there's the threading feature.

[Goldice]: there u go [Rondel] thanks for the idea. you r even mentioned by name on the wiki. i wud be happy if u wud help 'police' it for me especially as [Lord Kügenheim] will be on his own as im goin on holiday agen and we both have many wikis to look after.

[Citrine]: ooh! has anyone else seen bush's new campaign commercial!? "I can imagine the anguish of the parent trying to decide which child to pick up first" referrring to 9/11.... i would kill him, but then we'd be stuck with Chenney -_-

[Goldice]: all go look at nu member to the Bush Haters family

[Orey]: I almost screamed when I saw that. I mean, how in the hell can he still be milking that. He fucked up!! He is the one who didn't make people work togther and now we have this to look back on our memeories.

[Citrine]: i know! plus, it's so hypocritical... what about all of the soldiers he sent to death? wouldn't their family be in the same dilemma? i promise you, i did scream! >_<

[annabanana:)]: how can bush do that to all those people and can i join PLEASE PRETTY PRETTY PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IM ELF_CHICK_1110'S SISTER

[Goldice]: yeh sure.

[Orey]: My boyfriend and I were about to get engaged when they told him that he was going over seas. Not to Afganistan... but to Iraq! I supported them gettting Binladen... but dear god The only reason JJ (my exboyfriend now) is over there is because lil' Bush Jr. felt that he had to finish what his daddy started!!!

[Dilana]: they should send Bush to the frontline!!!!

[Citrine]: lol, dil, ur right! that's what i like about kerry... he was in Vietnam, he actually knows what he's sending these thousands of men & women into!

[kduncan]: Actually, Orey, it's much more insidious than merely finishing Bush senior's job of "getting Hussein". Bush is doing a great deal in the US to ensure that the poor and working class remain poor and working. Think about it: If you're working your fingers to the bone just to get by you have little time left over to think about the "ruling class" much less protest their actions, and a permanently poor population ensures a readily available supply of bodies for the military. If you haven't read the document: "Project for a New American Century".. you should! And every world citizen should be aware of the US miltary project HAARP.. it's very scary stuff.

[Dil*]: it is..isn't it, if you read "Dude where's my country" By: Michael Moore it tells you about how large corporations are robbing bastards.

[Orey]: YEah... thats nothing new. Come it's been that way since man came up with money. We as a species have been greedy since birth. Now, if the government can get money from corporations then they will protect them... i.e. insurance companies..... before they will help out the poorer working man or woman. It's bullshit!! I can't get a decent job right now cause where I was working moved out of the damn country... I even had to train some Korean man on how to work the computer system to run the factory!!

[Lord Kügenheim]: You heard what new Labour are planning for britain now? They're Dissarming us. there stopping most tornado opperation in the country. Scrapping most of the navy and replacing it with 3 big Aircraft carriers that wont be able to leave the harbour since they wont have any escorts to defend them.

[Orey]: Thats messed up!! When did this happen?

[Rondel]: Yeah, HAARP is some pretty scary stuff alright, and that's without focusing on the health-related side effects it seems to cause in susceptible people whenever it is actively in operation. As for Michael Moore, I worry for him, but I'm so glad that he does what he does,in terms of blowing the whistle on dirty little secrets, and bringing things into public awareness.

[jam]: hey, i love bush! bush is so great, i couldnt imagin, nay i WONT imagin life without bush. bush gives me comfort suppoart and a way to pass my time. i cant belive that there is actually people in this world that HATE BUSH!!!!! there has to be somthing wrong in this world when guys hate bush, and even more when the girls dont even want to look at bush, I REPEAT THERE IS SOMTHING WRONG WITH HATING BUSH!!!!!!!!! oh yeah, and the president sucks

[Orey]: LOL!!!!! Thats messed up. I don't know wether to laugh or go out and blow my brains out. lol

[Orey]: I like the new banner!!!!

[Lord Kügenheim]: Oh yeah i forgotted... The Banner competition is done and [fuck the fuckin username rules FUCK IT] Won! Everyone needs to do away with the old one and add the new one in, the code for which is at the top of this page.

[Orey]: lol. I'm putting it up now. lol

[Rondel]: <LOL> Nice comment, [jam]! :) I hope that the new banner meets with the various rules on acceptable art, here on Elftown. :)

[Goldice]: if it dont thn i wnna no y.it surley cant b copy right

[Rondel]: My one worry is the source of the photos of the marches, based on our experience with [BarleySinger]'s banners for this wiki and his own Stop Military Slavery wiki. They've been taken down more than once by the guards, despite meeting the elftown rules with regard to photomanipulated stock images.

[Lord Kügenheim]: I doubt it will be taken down, i mean, it was the only one out of the original 3 that wasent taken down. so if the guards didnt like it i would have been removed by now.

[LetsfreakinDance]: You guys will like this, go on google and look up Miserable Failure....trust me you will love it!!!!!!!!!

[Citrine]: hm... i did that and came up with *fake surprise* Bush! The results were almost all Bush, in fact, how odd.... *drops her sarcasm to roll on the floor laughing* haha! I wonder if Bush ever gets on google....!

[Dil*]: haha, that's bloody hilarious.

[Goldice]: tht is quite good

[Goldice]: CAN WE ALL GIVE A BIG CHEER TO [Ryftwalker](although he is not a member) WHO IS THE PROUD DADDY TO A 6LB 10OZ LITTLE BOY CALLED XAVIER.ALL GO AND GIVE YOUR BEST REGARDS AND SEND A HUG FOR THE LITTLE MAN.HE IS NICKENAMED Ryftcrawler ALTHOUGH HAS NOT YET GOT HIS OWN HOUSE. CONGRATULATIONS MR. AND MRS. [Ryftwalker]

[Lodengarn]: I will agree that Bush is not the best president we ever had though whoever we have as our nation leader we should support him and his decissions even if we do not completly agree with them

[she's gone country]: fuck you dude.. did you not realize this is the BUSH HATERS ASSOCIATION! duh.. try and read the title before you back up the things that a whole wiki is against

[Lord Kügenheim]: [Lodengarn] does have a point though, i laugh sometimes at how the world always complains about their leaders and wonder why since they put them there...

[kduncan]: The only problem with that theory, Lord Kugenheim, is that Bush was not elected to his office, he was granted the position by the US Supreme Court. What happened was that in Florida (as well as a few other states from what I understand), several voters were pulled from the voter roles because their names were the same as or similar to those of convicted felons. Foe example, say your name is John Doe and there is a convicted felon somewhere with the same name; your name was pulled from the voter roles, ie: you were not allowed to vote on election day. This also happened to other people with the same, and in some cases even SIMILAR names. (continued below..)

[kduncan]: The whole issue of chads was played up by the media, but that was not the election day problem that actually gave Bush the US Presidency. The names that were pulled from the voter rolls were overwhelmingly those of blacks, and blacks in the US overwhelmingly vote Democrat. This issue was brought before the Florida courts, and Katherine Harris admitted they'd "Made a mistake." The names in question were restored to the voter rolls, but only AFTER Bush had been sworn in as President, and only after the Gubernatorial election in Florida that re-elected his brother, Jeb, as Governor of Florida. (Continued below..)

[kduncan]: You see, before they were actually, physically, turned away at the polls, there was no reason for many of these people to suspect they'd have been pulled (and some 90,000 were denied their right to vote in Florida alone) since they'd never been convicted of any crime, much less a felony. Do I trust the US election system? Not any more. And the new computerised voting machines worry me, because most allow for no 'paper trail' of any one person's vote.

[Lordterrex]: blade to my chest, the only reason this wiki was made was so that u guys coudl talk about how much u hate bush, dont u think ur gonna get alot of people who support him in here?.... its common since

[she's gone country]: well i guess but most people are here to bag on bush. that is my reason for sure

[Lordterrex]: yes, we can all tell, but my reason is to question ur bagging.. to make u ask urself "am i really justified in bagging on him"... thats y me and some others are here

[she's gone country]: oh.. so r u a supporter of him.. i am jw i'mnot gonna get all mad like yesterday i was just a lil worked up then

[Lordterrex]: yes, i support bush, if u look back ull see me supporting the war, supporting attacking iraq, and supporting bush all the way, i dotn no about him as a person.. but i support his actions

[she's gone country]: oh.. interesting.. how old r u?

[Lordterrex]: 16, i understand u assume im to yougn to think for my own, and in my youth i understand i am a bit more nerodic than natural, it is possible when i gorw older i will rethink what i think now, but i dont care if what hes doing is evil or not, i beleive its right, the right thing for wrogn reasons, is still the right thing

[she's gone country]: i am not assuming u r to young to understand i was just asking

[Citrine]: hey, did anyone else see the rally in NY today? it was on c-span. I wish I could have been there!!!!!!!!

[she's gone country]: no i didn't...

[Dil*]: what rally?

[Citrine]: they expected a turn-out of 30,000 or something! I don't know how many they actually got, but as it is I think it's brilliant! if you have c-span u should go take a look, if it's stll on, that is

[Dil*]: what's c-span and what was the rally about?

[Citrine]: c-span's a tv channel. the rally was mostly anti-bush, but there were people there protesting all kinds of things.

[Dil*]: humm..i live in canada, so maybe i don't get c-span or whatever the hell ;)

[she's gone country]: omg i wish i would have been there i would bag bushlike nothing else exisisted in the world!

[Citrine]: lol, i bet u would

[she's gone country]: oh yeah

[Lodengarn]: I apologize to any I may have offended yesterday. In no way do I think Bush has made a good president though I support his decissions only because he is my nations leader. I do not mean to impose religious material on you though I do believe that all leaders are allowed in those possitions by god, and unless the president were to do something directly against my christian beliefs, no matter who he is or what party he belongs to, I will continue to support him.

[Dil*]: eh? that guy swore at you pretty badly, i don't think anyone was offended, but go to reasons why we hate bush and you'll see why our opinion is contrary to yours..

[kduncan]: Jezzrail, isn't it against your Christian beliefs to lie? I've been taught that lying is a no-no according to the ten commandments. If what I've been taught vis-a-vis lying is true, then Bush has repeatedly broken at least one of the ten commandments, and has done something that is in direct contrast to your Christian beliefs. And, yes, blade to my chest, you did over-react, and you sort of owe Jezzrail an apology. He's entitled to his opinion, no matter how much you may disagree with him. Don't stoop to the Bush administration's tactic of name-calling and bashing in an effort to censor people with opposing points of view.

[Lodengarn]: yes it is and that is why I have no real political affiliation because I have heard many lies from represenatives of both main political parties. I disagree with Bush on that note though most of his actions haven't been as bad as some of the actions made by past leaders. Don't get me wrong I have participated in anti republican rallies in the past and what not, though it has always been for the sake of trying to help influence people to stop some proposed law that still has yet to be voted on that I happen disagree with, and I must say even though I am only 17 I do a pretty good job at it. Oh and I take no hard feelings about you, blade to my chest, I realize I kinda came in unexpectedly

[kduncan]: Jezzrail, but I have to admit to being at a loss here. On the one hand you say you will support Bush until he does something that is directly contrary to your Christian beliefs. Obviously he has done something directly in violation of your Christian beliefs, you admit to knowing that he has.. and yet you continue to voice support him. Supporting the Persident's actions has nothing to do with being Republican or Democrat or Green or Libertarian, or any other of the dozens of political parties in the US, but how can you continue to support a person who you just said you couldn't support if certain criteria exsist.. and those criteria definitely exsist. Am I missing something here?

[Peregrinus]: I've got to agree with Kduncan. I'm a Christian, and that is the entire reason behind my distaste for Mr. Bush.

[Peregrinus]: But then... I ought to read the entire argument before jumping in, I now realize...

[Lodengarn]: he has lied which is clear and I don't agree with that, though most political officials do the same, and this can't be helped. I support his actions though not all of them at first. Once an issue has been decided on by political officials in our country there is not much point in arguing over it further which is what I have been trying to say. I do not support his lying, though I support his actions not the cause behind them. I do not mean to sound hipocritcal I have simply have trouble conveying my thoughts in words, though I still try my best at it.

[Peregrinus]: What actions specifically do you support of his? And why do you say that once a decision has been made there is no point in arguing? That's what is wonderful about this country, policy can be changed.

[Citrine]: jezz has a good point, all polititians lie...it's hard to choose a side when basically every one is corrupted. on the other hand, the one in office does need to be told that what he's doing is *glances up at the rules & shuts her mouth*

[kduncan]: You, as a citizen of the US, are the President's employer. If you owned your own business would you hire a person who repeatedly lies to you? Would you keep that person on staff after finding out he'd repeatedly lied to you? We are not obligated to support the President's decisions, he is obligated to represent the best interests of us, his employers. And quite frankly, he hasn't.

[Citrine]: *stares for a sec, then applauds* well put!

[Lordterrex]: lol... karate, u crack me up man........ i will continue standign by ush, unnless he stops freedoms of religion in my home land, or any freedoms for that matter, witch dont have anythign solid behidn them, if he stops muslims from worshiping the way they wish, well.. firstly.. he cant, and secondly, id throw a brick through his window, the truth is, i think hes doing the best, i doubt he planned on having his own plan, i admit that he wasnt planning on being attacked by "all" the muslims in the middle east, but you cant say that he hasn done any good, hes tryign to install democracy to a down trodden.. (an di use that word because i have no better ones) people. true american government has..

[Lordterrex]: supported evil dictators in the past, simply because these dictators had what we wanted, it was in our best intrest to support them, it is a bit embarrasing but, shit happens. the truth about this whole thing, is that its more rantign on americans, rather than bush, america is the one that supported dictatorships, and bush is the one who attacked one of them, if i was him, i would simply go on a rampage and destroy all the dictatorships, one dictatorship at a time.

[Citrine]: hm... is ish no man! (bwa! lotr has snuck into the shrub-haters wiki)

[Lodengarn]: the part I was saying shouldn't be argued is some like after it a war has already been declared against another nation. Now this war on terrorism idea is in my oppenion nonsese he should simply say a war against such and such a country. One of his actions that I support his his stance against gay marriges which should simply be called Sodamy. Just look at where the word comes from. In the Genesis you will see the story of Sodom and Gamora or however you pronounce that, I have a headache right now and am having trouble typing. I agree with Karate toad in the idea that we shouldn't keep Bush around after the next ellection though I am not arguing or even trying to touch on that subject but

[Lodengarn]: instead am talking about the time that we are stuck with him

[Citrine]: ...which is only another few months *knocks on wood*

[Mitul]: Well, rather than writing something huge and bulky in debate and discussions of this wiki, I've created my own explaining some of my own opinions. Anyone interested in some more Bush hating, please take a look at Some Truth About Bush and Kerry.

[Mitul]: Oh, and also take a look at Obliviously On He Sails. I picked up some of my favorite Calvin Trillin poems about the Bush Administration. You guys will probably like them, I'm sure    :P

[BarleySinger]: [Jazzrail], why are you against people who are in love, being able to get married just becasue they are of the same gender? When I was a kid it was illegal for people in most of the US to get married if they were of different races and "god" was given as the reason. "God" is never a good reason for a law because laws based on religious fanaticism are the same thing as the Taliban. Laws for everyone, not just a few people who have a religious idea about how things should be. Don't like gay marriage? Don't have one yourself. That is the sum total of your rights. Anything beyond "you controlling you" when it comes to consenting adults, is fascism and ethically wrong. 

[BarleySinger]: As for the USA supporting dictators being "in the past", who do you think tried to overthow the new democratic governmen of Columbia two years ago with a coop? The USA. Who put Sadam in power and told him it was OK to attack Kuwait? The USA. Who funded the Taliban starting back in the 1950s and put them into power? The USA. Who has been responsible for 250,000 deaths (many by dissapearance and torture) in Guatamala since the 50s by overthrowing their democratic government? The USA. Who is engaged in an illegal war in southern Mexico right now? The USA. If you really believe that the US is in Iraq to help the downtrodden you are nieve. 

[BarleySinger]: The Taliban was funded by the US govenment (starting back in the 50s) to overthrow a very good democratic govenment that had equal rights for all and religious freedom. They were ahead of their time when it came to human rights and ahead of what the US has today. The problem was that that government was reasonable to the USSR, talked to them like they were human beings instead of like they were an "evil empire". Remeber also that Cheney is making money personally from the war. Halibuerton (sp?) is the company that is doing most of the rebuilding and he owns the majority of the stock.

[Dil*]: good stuff...do you have any dirt on the canadian govt..i'm kinda curious.

[Lordterrex]: lol.. canada......i have a question, y would we allow the iraqi government to go into kuwait, when were the ones who kicked iraqs as in the gulf war, whitch was al about kuwait, now i do agree with guatemala, i used to live there, and it is crappy, but i think i should remind u, thats america, not americans or bush

[barutha]: ouch, it seems support bush's numbers are rising rapidly and there is nothing to stop them. you lot should get off your asses and do something about this. a member of this wiki compared homosexuals to vampires to prove her point when arguing with me. whats tah about? these guys should be told off, if not stopped. they dont seem to have any good reason to support bush other than they will be opposing you lot, so step in while you can. but watch out, they cant hold together anything like a coherent argument. so watch out.

[Lordterrex]: .... ooo... kind of reminds me of me... im joining man.. *salutes*.. although.. i do think i can hold up an argument

[kduncan]: LordTerrex, do you know whay the Iraq-Kuwaiti war was really about? Do you know what "slant-drilling" is? That's what Kuwait was doing, and it was illegal.

[Lordterrex]: so, kuwait was taking oil from iraq, oo.. that is vry clever, well, i dont mind, i have nothign for or against kuwait, i say america fought iraq off simply because it was in our best intrest, do u no that iraq was goign against the u.n.s orders when it did what it did??... now.. i want to no, when bush goes against u.n. orders.. its evil.. but when iraq does it.. its ok??

[Citrine]: so you think it's just the u.s.'s special duty to police the world?

[Lordterrex]: nah, thats the u.n.s job, but, didnt the u.n. tell america to help kuwait???.......

[Citrine]: *not trying to duck out of the discussion* but isn't this supposed to take place on the argument page?......anyway, in answer, I don't know, but I'm thinking the us probably went in their to protect the oil, because the Iraqis went into Kuwait & were burning the oil...or vica versa. someone else defend this, my history's not good.

[kduncan]: To turn that argument around LordTerrex: Why is it evil for Iraq to violate the provisions of the UN, but ok for the US (or Kuwait) to do so? And Karatetoad, Iraq felt fully justified in burning the oil that Kuwait had stolen. Sort of a collective, "The bastards! Like hell they're going to keep our oil!" ie: Hussein would rather see the oil go up in smoke (literally) than see the Kuwaiti's get it.

[Dil*]: wait wait..lets back it up a little..saddam used poison gas on the kuwait people.

[Citrine]: yay my memory, I knew that was in there somewhere, I just forgot the basis.

[Lordterrex]: he also used poison gas on his own people, to see if it worked well, i never said that iraq was evil for going into kuwait... did i?..... i simply said, y is it ok to U for iraq to go against orders, but bad for U.S.???.... of course ur looking at it from the perspective of, bush bad, iraq bad, but iraq was provocted right?? maybe the u.s. does what it does simply because it can

[Dil*]: so you're saying the U.S. is justified in attacking another country because they can?

[Lordterrex]: no, im saying the U.S. is justified in policing the globe, because they can, if ur government has a problem with it bomb us...... that is unnless if ur american

[Citrine]: retaliation might be justified, but we are not the planet's frigging nanny!

[Lordterrex]: nah, we arent, i see us more as sumone attempting to take over the world.. disguized as a nanny.. infact.... france is the person who is suspiciouse, i just relized somthing, the reasons u hate bush and american policy governemtn.. are the same reasons i like him, and agree with him

[Citrine]: 'o_o u want to take over the world?

[Lordterrex]: ... *blinx*.. is that surprising to u my dear?

[Citrine]: i told u not to call me 'my dear'. no, it's not really too surprising....a little sad/pathetic, but not surprising, no. if u do get them means to take it over, come talk to me so we can plot out the perfect commi/anarchy system & bring the world into balance. *rolls eyes*

[Lordterrex]: lol.... i no its impossible.. sry abotu the dear, but i dont think its right to say a country like america is "bad".. when i agree with there tactics

[Citrine]: cheerfully, well that's your opinion. i'll write to you from the ocean country & see how your world dominion is coming along ^_~

[Lordterrex]: lol.... i think we all know im not gonna take over the world... but i wish i had my own small country, it would be peaceful, but we would have an army, and we woudl fight, but we wouldnt just kill... i dont think.. who knows.. i might be all evil by then

[VorpalBlade910]: *laughs* that's a load of confidence alex

[Lordterrex]: hey man.. one must be confident if he wishes to succeed..... *bows*....

[VorpalBlade910]: *pats terrex on the back* and you defiently succeed

[Dil*]: hey [Lordterrex] i also think america is trying to take over the world...ever heard of the plan 'pax americanis' ?

[Lordterrex]: no.. cant say that i have.. i imagine ur con america takign over the world?

[Dil*]: nah..just one of my many conspiracy theories..

[Lordterrex]: o... pray do tell me all about it

[Dil*]: that one i can't remember much about...i should get my facts together..

[Lordterrex]: o.. ok.... once u have them.. im here

[Dil*]: well..i attended this talk thing at my school for grd.11's (and i was in grd.10 at the time, but i had a spare) and it talked about the conspiracy thing..and my grd.11 friends took notes..so i'll try to get it from them.

[Lordterrex]: hmm.... i would love to hear it

[BarleySinger]: but [Lordterrex], nobody has the right to police the world. It is an egocentric and fascist idea to say"I know best and have the right to kill peope to enforce my will". The US government has casued most of these problems in the first place, in places already messed up by the colonial period where Brittian and France (etc) took over other peopls lands for their resources, and created countries (Kuwait, etc) to limit the power of nations they did not like. The Viethahm and Korean wars started from French empire building. You do not solve violence that was caused by peple being abused, by shooting at them even more. Terrorism is the result of empire building and fascism. More of the ...

[BarleySinger]: ...will not cure it. The (non US) terrorists are just trying to police the globe too. They are trying police the globe to stop the US from millitary meddeling, The US CIA goes around starting wars, funding terrist groups, and overthrowing legitimite governments. The war in Guatamala killed 250,000 - to protect US money interests. Read the speech from the general on the wiki Stop Military Slavery. Goverments use their armies to ensure profits, and sometimes the losers get pissed off and kill innocent people, having lost their aversion to warfare from being dragged though it constantly.

[kduncan]: Pax Americanis is not merely a theory, the idea is outlined quite clearly in a document titled "The Project for a New American Century" which was signed by several important figures (both Republican and Democrat) in US government. It's available online in a .pdf document. Among other things, it called for an event similar to Pearl Harbour to justify the build up of the US military.. how convenient for Bush that we had 911, it was exactly the justification needed to jumpstart the battle against world terrorism and expand the financing of our military.

[kduncan]: Now, about those Kurds: How many of you are aware of the fact that Hussein has been battling some of the same "insurrgents" (revolutionaries?) that the US is now battling? Many of the Kurds gassed and bombed were actually Iranian Kurds, not Iraqi Kurds. Were there Iraqi Kurds killed at the same time? Probably. But let's not forget that the US government has killed its own citizens within US borders as well (Waco, Ruby Ridge). Hussein has been hated in the middle east by conservative Arab countries for almost as long as he's been in power. Though it would be a stretch to call Iraq a democracy, it was a more democratic nation than Saudi Arabia is today.

[BarleySinger]: Hussein was also put in power by the US government. He was "their man inthe middlle east" for a long time jsut like Noreiga in Panama. Panama was, incidentally, originallyapart of another country (a democratic one) and it was created by a US sponsored revolution so that the canal could be built (one of the bloodiest projects in history, not healthy at all to work on it). It's the same as the old "empre period", with governments grabbing land and fighting each other, using patriotism as an excause to kill for a buck. History repeats itself. Perhaps it eats too many beans.

[kduncan]: Some cool links for interested people, or disbelievers. If the owners of this wiki want, they can move this post and the links to a more appropriate spot. Project for a New American Century - http://www.newamericancentury.org/ The Carlyle Group - http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3995.htm (Note: The first minute or so is in Dutch.) Frontline: The Man Who Knew - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/ PBS: bin Laden/911 Timeline - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/etc/cron.html

[Christie Shadow]: Is there anyone inhere who do NOT want Kerry as new President, instead of Bush??

[kduncan]: I don't want Kerry or Bush, neither one of them is really a viable option as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunately, I feel that getting Bush out of office is Job One this election year, so I'm not sure that voting a third party candidate is an option either.

[Christie Shadow]: Hmm.... No. You're right. But I would prefer Kerry - he's not a coward, refereing to his past.

[Pale-Suzie]: i dunno, it's like chosing between to evils...bush is bad, kerry is bad... but then again, i think i'd prefer kerry over bush...

[BarleySinger]: Bush is a deluded "born again Christian" who believes he has a mandate from God to remake the politics of the middle east through war. He never reads anything and relies on the opinions of a few people to make all his decisions. His assistant secretary of defense actually called the shadow of a B1 bomber (knowing what it was) a "demon from hell" saying that people could see by this that they were fighting a war against evil. Bush's cabinet meetings are like bible studies with constant bible quotes and prayers. Kerry is no boy scout, but at least he is not dangerously deranged with a vice president who like war because he get right from his stocks. He owns over 50% of Haliburten.

[kduncan]: Personally, I don't believe that Bush is a true Christian, even if he believes himself to be. Though I'm not Christian myself, I do know people who are truly good people who are Christian.. and Bush is simply not in the same league as them. In fact, he's not even close.

[BarleySinger]: when vp Cheney was actually secretary of defense under GW Bush, he had just stepped down from his position as CEO of Hailburten - a company that made a lot of money off of gulf war I, and is now the major contractor for rebuilding after gulf war II. As for the idea of "would people in the US government contrive a reason to go to war?" Yes. They have before. Several times. Did they do it themselves? Set it up so others did? Do a part of it themselves, or just take advantage of a bad situation for their own gain? Who knows. BUT no off course airliner in the USA, especially in that part of the country has ever taken more than around 12 minutes to get a fighter escort back to their...

[Pale-Suzie]: yeah, i know for sure that i neither trust nor like bush, but i don't know how to feel about kerry, a lot of ppl say they don't like him, but i haven't heard any reasons... so what is there to chose between? and eventhough kerry might not be half as bad as bush, it is still bad enough... what to believe? -_-

[Dil*]: People, advertise and recruit!!, we want to hit 200 members right? RIGHT?!

[Dil*]: use this small banner when advertising in comments box bush haters association if you hate bush, join now!

[Lord Kügenheim]: eyyy! im liking that [Dil*]!

[Dil*]: ya..the last 3 were recruited by me..still trying to get stupid brother to put the banner in his house though..

[Lord Kügenheim]: ahh well, ~*Brandee*~ can eat him if he doesnt... its her job ^_^

[shadow xiv]: lol

[Goldice]: yep nd thn sum1 can have the gristly bits cos she dont eat thm

[Lord Kügenheim]: oh let shadow have them, he'll eat anything as long as there is blood involved... *sick*

[Goldice]: lol.ok thn.but she aint havin any of mine

[BarleySinger]: The thing about religions is that they change over time, and a lot of the people with strong emotional attachments to them want to believe that they don't change. They want to believe that they were exactly the same all the time, ever since they started. That's a part of being a fundamentalist. Fundamentalist Christians hearke back to some non-existent golden age, as do fundamentalist Islamics, etc in the belief that the religion is perfect -provided directly by God- and should not change. Bush is like that. So are my parents (my whole immediate family really). Bush Sr was an opportunist, hopping on the Reagan/God bandwagon...but baby Bush is a true believer - the same as the taliban

[kduncan]: The thing is, a Christian beleives and worships as directed by Christ. Christ preached forgiveness, tolerance, and love. The old testament was harder, teaching punishment and intolerance. Bush is not a Christian in that he doesn't follow the teachings of Christ, but rather (most) of the teachings of the old testament (I'll bet he eats lobster at those state dinners though). In order to be a Christian in the true sense of the word, one must follow the teachings of Christ, Bush most definitely doesn't; thus my statement that he may believe himself to be a Christian, but he most certainly isn't.

[BarleySinger]: ...who are the people that the CIA helped to take over the country. That whole area reeks of CIA interference. The US started funding the taliban back in the early 1950s because the (very) progressive and free democratic Afghani government was on good terms with their soviet neighbors. Lots of CIA went and got the rebells shooting, and the Soviets went in the with KGB and everyone had their "cold war tantrum" with each other. Then the Soviets attacked Afghanistan, which normally would have really ticked off the USA, but they hated that Afghani government. So the US just made Afghanistan very expensive in blood by giving the local opium riddled gorillas good weapons and training.

[kduncan]: By the way, Barley Singer, regards your post referring to the events of 911.. I'm a pilot (flight instructor in fact), and there is no way I will ever believe that the events of 911 unfolded the way we're told they did. For 911 to have happened the way we're told, every single normal and emergency operating proceedure would have simply had to have fallen apart. I can't believe that so many air traffic controllers were so grossly incompetent and managed to keep their jobs afterwards. Also, those commercial flights would have been IFR, and no IFR flight is allowed to go off course, since to do so poses a threat to other planes in the area. (continued..)

[BarleySinger]: Eventually the soviets left Afghanistan (and the dreams of a better ice free port) like the US left Vietnam - in defeat. And when they left there was a power vacuum. So in stepped the people that the US had been funding and training all that time - the bloodiest, nastiest fighters that the CIA could find. The lunatic religious fringe. They took over the country. And daddy Bush was the head of the CIA during a part of that training time...he funding and training of the Taliban and the funding and training the El Salvador death squads. And now his son is being "handled" by a select group of people who share his ideas, people left over from the Reagan and Bush whitehouse-dads people.

[kduncan]: At the AF base I worked at the scramble time was fifteen minutes; that's fifteen minutes between the time a possible threat was picked up to the time the aircraft was in the air. There is no reason why any of those planes should have reached their targets, and for one to have actually reached the Pentagon, considering the elapsed time, absolutely escapes me.

[BarleySinger]: The stuff happening today started some time ago. Personally I think that the political conservatives (neo-conservatives) who are into money and power (and a smattering of religion) are just manipulating the empty headed "true believers" like those in the House of Representatives and the "Idiot in Chief", and they are just paying lip service to their psychotic delusions to get what they want out of them...money and power. It is very little different than Rome around 400 AD. Once again history repeats itself. I think it should lay off eating so many beans.

[BarleySinger]: As for an "airliner" reaching the pentagon - as far as I can tell one didn't. There are pictures from the video security cameras in the pentagon parking lot that give a clear image of the airplane (or missles) tail section, and no commercial or passenger jet has that tail section. It it totally wrong. The thing is dark grey and comes up from the fusalage at the wrong angle. There was also no airliner debris anywhere to be seen. It really makes me wonder what exaclty did hit that building because it was not a 767.

[kduncan]: I agree.

[BarleySinger]: Can someone tell me how a Boeing jet (14.9 yards high at the fusalage and 51.7 yards long with a wingspan of 41.6 yards and a cockpit 3.8 yards high) can accuralty crash into just the ground floor of a concrete building, and not strike any other part of the building? The building is 77 feet high and that jet fuelsalage would have been 16 feet high. How any pilot could have (by the official version) have hit only the first floor (around 10 feet max). in somthing 16 feet high, filled with jet fuel, at perfectly level flight, going at 350 mph merely 6 feet above ground is past impossible.